Of course I need to do all things. If I am not doing them it could be because I made a mistake or misunderstood something. I am always trying to improve and incorporate feedback on my mistakes.
One thing I've noticed watching the candidate series going by on the list -- is there something consistent that could go in the subject line of a candidate series from the first posting all the way until the stable maintainers queue them up?
"[PATCH 5.10 v2 0/8] xfs fixes for 5.10.y (part 2)"
isn't quite specific enough to make it easy to find the threads in mutt, at least not if they're all called "xfs fixes for 5.10.y". I'm not sure what to suggest here though -- pick two random dictionary words?
"xfs: fixes for 5.10.y (trews sphenic)"
But that just looks like your $pet walked over the keyboard. Maybe something boring like the date the candidate series was first posted?
That's good feedback!
In my tree this part 2 is tag xfs-5.10.y-2 which is annotated as:
5.10.y xfs backports circa 5.12
I can go with something along those lines. It will not always be possible to use the origin release as a description, but the word backports is pretty descriptive and should not collide with anything else going through xfs list.
I was also pondering how to reflect the transition from candidate to stable posting.
Note that from part 1 to part 2 I added CANDIDATE to the review post.
The choice of going with v2 for stable posting is just the best idea I came up with, not sure if it is a good idea. I would certainly have been better if I had done the changelog since v1. In retrospect, I should have posted v2 CANDIDATE and only then posted to stable.
Regarding changelogs, I do not understand what you mean. Isn't that a changelog at the bottom of my cover letter? Do you mean something else?
I /think/ Dave wanted to see something at the bottom of the cover letter like this. Actually, I won't speak for Dave, but this is what I'd like to see if you make substantive changes between the CANDIDATE patchset and the one that actually gets sent to -stable:
"I would like to thank Samsung for contributing the hardware for the kdevops test environment and especially to Luis for his ongoing support in the test environment, which does most of the work for me :)
"v3: Change frob to brof, per maintainer request. v2: Add patch 7, which it turns out was a hidden prerequisite for patch 8.
Gosh! of course. Total blackout.
I had a mental perception of a RESEND that drops the CANDIDATE tag, so I completely forgot about that.
The clear mistake here was to not post CANDIDATE v2 to xfs. And it is not out of laziness or eagerness that I didn't post v2. I was trying to reduce the already loud noise that this effort is causing to a minimum, but in retrospect, the risk of creating friction due to misunderstanding was not worth it.
Regarding explicit ACKs, I wasn't sure what to do.
Me neither. It feels a little funny to ACK a patch in a stable queue that I already RVB'd for upstream, but is that peoples' expectation?
My goal is not to take away control from xfs maintainers. My goal is to lower the burden on xfs maintainers. It would seem to me that requiring explicit ACK per patch is not the formula for reducing burden.
Luis suggested the earlier of explicit ACK (can also be on the series) and two weeks of grace on xfs list.
That sounds like a good balance to me. But rest assured, if there is a patch that is more than trivial, and I am not sure about, I would ping the relevant developer myself and not trust the tests alone.
Ted has asked this on this thread [1].
[1] https://lore.kernel.org/linux-fsdevel/YieG8rZkgnfwygyu@mit.edu/
I asked this in my reply [2] to Darrick's email, but got no reply:
:Should we post to xfs list and wait for explicit ACK/RVB on every patch? :Should we post to xfs list and if no objections are raised post to stable?
[2] https://lore.kernel.org/linux-xfs/CAOQ4uxjtOJ_=65MXVv0Ry0Z224dBxeLJ44FB_O-Nr...
TBH there have been enough stable process discussion threads in the past month that I've probably lost track of ... well, clearly, those two. :/
Since I had no explicit rules, I used my common sense, which is a recipe for misunderstandings... :-/
I posted the candidates one week ago, so I thought everyone had the opportunity to comment. You gave me comments on patches 1 and 7 so I had assumed that you had seen the entire series and had no objections to the rest.
I incorporated your feedback and wrote my plans in this email [3]
I'm going to offer my (probably controversial) opinion here: I would like to delegate /all/ of the power and responsibility for stable maintenance to all of you (Amir/Leah/Chandan/etc.) who are doing the work. What Amir did here (send a candidate patchset, take suggestions for a week, run the batch through fstests) is more or less what I'd expect from whoever owns the LTS backport process.
Frankly, I don't see so much difference between what I do between -rc1 and -rc4 and what Amir's doing -- propose a bunch of fixpatches, wait a few days, and if there aren't any strenuous objections, send them on their way. IOWS, I own whatever's going to the upstream tree; Amir owns whatever's going to 5.10; Leah and Chandan own whatever's going to 5.15; and (I guess?) Chandan owns whatever's going to 5.4.
I think Dave's afraid that if something goes wrong with an LTS kernel then the downstream consumers of those LTS kernels will show up on the list with bug reports and asking for fixes, and that will just put more pressure on the upstream maintainers since those consumers don't care about who they're talking to, they just want a resolution. But I'll let him express his thoughts.
I've been pondering this overnight, and I don't agree that the above scenario is the inevitable outcome. Are you (LTS branch maintainers) willing to put your names in the MAINTAINERS file for the LTS kernels and let us (upstream maintainers) point downstream consumers (and their bug report) of those branches at you? If so, then I see that as effective delegation of responsibilities to people who have taken ownership of the LTS branches, not merely blame shifting.
Yes, I am willing to take that responsibility. I curated the 5.10 backports, signed them and tested them. I see them as my responsibility to LTS users whether you list me in MAINTAINERS or you don't.
I can commit to being responsive to reports from LTS users. I do want to state, though, that my ability to continue to validate and post backports depends on the resources that Samsung provided Luis and me. If that changes in the future, we will need to re-assess.
If yes, then ... do as you like, you're the branch owner. I expect things to be rocky for a while, but it beats burning myself out with too many responsibilities that I have not been able to keep up with. It's probably better for the long term stability of each LTS branch if there's one or two people who are really familiar with how that LTS has been doing, instead of me trying and failing to multiplex.
Also, as Greg points out, at worst, you /can/ decide to revert something that initially looked good but later turned out smelly.
The one thing I /will/ caution you about -- watch out for changes that affect what gets persisted to disk. Those need more review because fixing those things up after the fact (look at the AGFL padding corrections we had to do to fix some uncaught problems upstream) is /not/ fun.
Duly noted.
Speaking on my behalf, the candidates that I post go through careful manual inspection, which takes the wider context into account. I have been following the xfs list for over 5 years, before starting to do this work and the backport work started top down from a complete overview of everything that got merged since v5.10.
:Just to make sure we are all on the same page. : :I have applied both patches to my test tree: :1. 1cd738b13ae9 xfs: consider shutdown in bmapbt cursor delete assert :2. 56486f307100 xfs: assert in xfs_btree_del_cursor should take into :account error : :Patch #2 looks pretty safe and it only affects builds with XFS_WARN/DEBUG, :so I am not too concerned about a soaking period. :I plan to send it along with patch #1 to stable after a few more test runs.
Once again, I *assumed* that you saw that because this was part of an ongoing conversation, not some random email.
4 days later (after more testing) I did what I said I would do and posted the revised series to stable with feedback incorporated. This was also detailed in the cover letter to stable.
[3] https://lore.kernel.org/linux-xfs/CAOQ4uxhxLRTUfyhSy9D6nsGdVANrUOgRM8msVPVmF...
If this situation repeats itself in the future, I will post v2 to xfs list first.
Yes, please do. It has been customary to push a final patchset for 24h prior to submission just to see if anything shakes out at the last minute.
ok.
And I notice that you've already sent out yet another set of stable patches for review despite the paint not even being dry on these ones. Not to mention that there's a another set of different 5.15 stable patches out for review as well.
I will pace myself going forward and collaborate closer with Leah. I have two years of kernel releases to catch up with, but once we reach the point of selecting patches from the present releases Hopefully, some of the reviews for candidates for different LTS kernels will be shared.
Admittedly, a new patchset every week is kind of a lot to pick through with everything /else/ going on ... particularly this week, since I /was/ busy trying to get the online fsck design doc review started, and dealing with a CVE for the grub xfs driver, and also trying to get the new LARP/NREXT64 itself sorted. That said, a couple of years is a lot of stuff to get through, so if we need to do a continuous trickle of patches to get caught up then so be it.
As long as you all end up doing a better job with LTS maintenance than I was doing, it's an improvement, even with the lumps and bumps. :)
This is not a sustainable process.
Seriously: slow down and stop being so damn aggressive. Let everyone catch up and build sustainable processes and timetables. If you keep going like this, you are going break people.
I do not want that.
Let me explain my process. As I described in the meta-cover letter [4] for the multi part series:
:My intention is to post the parts for review on the xfs list on :a ~weekly basis and forward them to stable only after xfs developers :have had the chance to review the selection.
[4] https://lore.kernel.org/linux-xfs/20220525111715.2769700-1-amir73il@gmail.co...
To you, it may appear that "paint not even being dry on these ones" but to me, I perceived part 2 was already out of review and part 3 was already spinning in xfstests for a week, so I wanted to post those patches and give as much time for review as needed.
My idea of sustainable was posting ~7 stable candidates per week. This pace may be a bit higher than normal fixes flow, but I do need to catch up with 2 years of fixes, so the rate has to be a bit higher than the normal rate of fixes that go into upstream.
Pipelining is a bit more troublesome -- it's difficult for me to concentrate on two similarly named patchsets at the same time. If you have (say) part 3 running through its paces internally but only post part 3 after Greg lands part 2, that sounds acceptable to me.
That makes sense. Looks like part 4 is going to be cooked "well done" by the time I post it ;-) Luis' kdevops is gaining more stability as time goes by. I can sometimes leave it running for days without attending to sporadic testing issues.
I had to choose something based on no other feedback, but of course the idea is to take feedback and incorporate it into the process in order to make it sustainable.
I will do my best to amend the things that were broken in this posting. I am sure this is not the last time I am going to make mistakes. I am trying to fix a process that has been broken for years. I invest a lot of my time and energy in this effort.
My request is that you assume good intentions on my part and if there are rules that you want me to follow please spell them out, so I won't end up guessing wrong again.
I know, and thank you all for your willingness to take on LTS maintainership. There will undoubtedly be more, uh, learning opportunities, but I'll try to roll with them as gently as I can. Emotional self-regulation has not been one of my strong points the last year or so.
Thank you for this email. It helps a lot to clarify the process!
Amir.